Loblaws to tap Ontario program with solar panels

SDG&E Ramona Microgrid delivers renewable energy and battery storage for wildfire mitigation, grid resilience, and PSPS support, powering the Cal Fire Air Attack Base with a 500 kW, 2,000 kWh lithium-ion system during outages.

Key Points

A renewable, battery-backed microgrid powering Ramona's Air Attack Base, boosting wildfire response and PSPS resilience.

✅ 500 kW, 2,000 kWh lithium-ion storage replaces diesel

✅ Keeps Cal Fire and USFS aircraft operations powered

✅ Supports PSPS continuity and rural water reliability

It figures to be another dry year — with the potential to spark wildfires in the region. But San Diego Gas & Electric just completed a renewable energy upgrade to a microgrid in Ramona that will help firefighters and reduce the effects of power shutoffs to backcountry residents.

The microgrid will provide backup power to the Ramona Air Attack Base, helping keep the lights on during outages, home to Cal Fire and the U.S. Forest Service's fleet of aircrafts that can quickly douse fires before they get out of hand.

"It gives us peace of mind to have backup power for a critical facility like the Ramona Air Attack Base, especially given the fact that fire season in California has become year-round," Cal Fire/San Diego County Fire Chief Tony Mecham said in a statement.

The air attack base serves as a hub for fixed-wing aircraft assigned to put out fires. Cal Fire staffs the base throughout the year with one two airtankers and one tactical aircraft. The base also houses the Forest Service's Bell 205 A++ helicopter and crew to protect the Cleveland National Forest. Aircraft for both CalFire and the Forest Service can also be mobilized to help fight fires throughout the state.

This summer, the Ramona microgrid won't have to rely on diesel generation. Instead, the facility next to the town's airport will be powered by a 500 kilowatt and 2,000 kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery storage system that won't generate any greenhouse gas emissions.

"What's great about it, besides that it's a renewable resource, is that it's a permanent installation," said Jonathan Woldemariam, SDG&E's director of wildfire mitigation and vegetation management. "In other words, we don't have to roll a portable generator out there. It's something that can be leveraged right there because it's already installed and ready to go."

Microgrids have taken on a larger profile across the state because they can operate independently of the larger electric grid, where repairing California's grid is an ongoing challenge, thus allowing small areas or communities to keep the power flowing for hours at a time during emergencies.

That can be crucial in wildfire-prone areas affected by Public Safety Power Shutoffs, or PSPS, the practice in which investor-owned utilities in California de-energize electrical power lines in a defined area when conditions are dry and windy in order to reduce the risk of a power line falling and igniting a wildfire, while power grid upgrades move forward statewide.

Rural and backcountry communities are particularly hard hit when the power is pre-emptively cut off because many homes rely on water from wells powered by electricity for their homes, horses and livestock.

In addition to Ramona, SDG&E has established microgrids in three other areas in High Fire Threat Districts:

The microgrids in Butterfield Ranch and Shelter Valley run on diesel power but the utility plans to complete solar and battery storage systems for each locale by the end of next year, as other regions develop new microgrid rules to guide deployment.

SDG&E has a fifth microgrid in operation — in Borrego Springs, which in 2013 became the first utility-scale microgrid in the country. It provides grid resiliency to the roughly 2,700 residents of the desert town and serves as a model for integrated microgrid projects elsewhere in delivering local electricity. While the Borrego Springs microgrid is not located in a High Fire Threat District, "when and if any power is turned off, especially the power transmission feed that goes to Borrego, we can support the customers using the microgrid out there," Woldemariam said.

Microgrid costs can be higher than conventional energy systems, even as projected energy storage revenue grows over the next decade, and the costs of the SDG&E projects are passed on to ratepayers. As per California Public Utilities Commission rules, the financial details for each of microgrid are kept confidential for at least three years.

SDG&E's microgrids are part of the utility's larger plan to reduce wildfire risk that SDG&E files with the utilities commission. In its wildfire plan for 2020 through 2022, SDG&E expected to spend $1.89 billion on mitigation measures.

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China Unified Power Market enables carbon neutrality through renewable integration, cross-provincial electricity trading, smart grid upgrades, energy storage, and market reform, reducing coal dependence and improving grid flexibility, efficiency, and emissions mitigation.

Key Points

A national power market integrating renewables and grids to cut coal use and accelerate carbon neutrality.

✅ Harmonizes pricing and cross-provincial electricity trading.

✅ Boosts renewable integration with storage and smart grids.

✅ Improves dispatch efficiency, reliability, and emissions cuts.

China's ambitious goal to achieve carbon neutrality has become a focal point in global climate discussions around the global energy transition worldwide, with experts emphasizing the pivotal role of a unified power market in realizing this objective. This article explores China's commitment to carbon neutrality, the challenges it faces, and how a unified power market could facilitate the transition to a low-carbon economy.

China's Commitment to Carbon Neutrality

China, as the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases, has committed to achieving carbon neutrality by 2060. This ambitious goal signals a significant shift towards reducing carbon emissions and mitigating climate change impacts. Achieving carbon neutrality requires transitioning away from fossil fuels, including investing in carbon-free electricity pathways and enhancing energy efficiency across sectors such as industry, transportation, and residential energy consumption.

Challenges in China's Energy Landscape

China's energy landscape is characterized by its heavy reliance on coal, which accounts for a substantial portion of electricity generation and contributes significantly to carbon emissions. Transitioning to renewable energy sources such as wind, solar, hydroelectric, and nuclear power is essential to reducing carbon emissions and achieving carbon neutrality. However, integrating these renewable sources into the existing energy grid poses technical, regulatory, and financial challenges that often hinge on adequate clean electricity investment levels and policy coordination.

Role of a Unified Power Market

A unified power market in China could play a crucial role in facilitating the transition to a low-carbon economy. By integrating regional power grids and promoting cross-provincial electricity trading, a unified market can optimize the use of renewable energy resources, incorporate lessons from decarbonizing electricity grids initiatives to enhance grid stability, and reduce reliance on coal-fired power plants. This market mechanism encourages competition among energy producers, incentivizes investment in renewable energy projects, and improves overall efficiency in electricity generation and distribution.

Benefits of a Unified Power Market

Implementing a unified power market in China offers several benefits in advancing its carbon neutrality goals. It promotes renewable energy development by providing a larger market for electricity generated from wind, solar, and other clean sources that underpin the race to net-zero in many economies. It also enhances grid flexibility, enabling better management of fluctuations in renewable energy supply and demand. Moreover, a unified market encourages innovation in energy storage technologies and smart grid infrastructure, essential components for integrating variable renewable energy sources.

Policy and Regulatory Considerations

Achieving a unified power market in China requires coordinated policy efforts and regulatory reforms. This includes harmonizing electricity pricing mechanisms, streamlining administrative procedures for electricity trading across provinces, and ensuring fair competition among energy producers. Clear and consistent policies that support renewable energy deployment and grid modernization, and align with insights on climate policy and grid implications from other jurisdictions, are essential to attracting investment and fostering a sustainable energy transition.

International Collaboration and Leadership

China's commitment to carbon neutrality presents opportunities for international collaboration and leadership in climate action. Engaging with global partners, sharing best practices, and promoting technology transfer, as seen with Canada's 2050 net-zero target commitments, can accelerate progress towards a low-carbon future. By demonstrating leadership in clean energy innovation and climate resilience, China can contribute to global efforts to mitigate climate change and achieve sustainable development goals.

Conclusion

China's pursuit of carbon neutrality by 2060 represents a monumental endeavor that requires transformative changes in its energy sector. A unified power market holds promise as a critical enabler in this transition, facilitating the integration of renewable energy sources, enhancing grid flexibility, and optimizing energy efficiency. By prioritizing policy coherence, regulatory reform, and international cooperation, China can pave the way towards a sustainable energy future while addressing global climate challenges.

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SECCRA Waga Energy RNG Partnership captures landfill methane with WAGABOX, upgrades biogas to pipeline-quality RNG, enables grid injection, and lowers greenhouse gas emissions, delivering sustainable energy to Chester County homes and businesses.

Key Points

A joint project converting landfill methane to RNG with WAGABOX, cutting emissions and supplying local heat.

✅ WAGABOX captures and purifies landfill gas to RNG

✅ Grid injection supplies energy for 4,000+ homes

✅ Cuts methane and greenhouse gas emissions significantly

In a significant environmental initiative, the Southeastern Chester County Refuse Authority (SECCRA) has partnered with French energy company Waga Energy to convert methane emissions from its landfill into renewable natural gas (RNG). This collaboration aims to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and provide sustainable energy to the local community, echoing energy efficiency projects in Quebec seen elsewhere.

Understanding the Issue

Landfills are a substantial source of methane emissions, accounting for over 14% of human-induced methane emissions, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas, and issues like SF6 in power equipment further boost warming, trapping more heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide, making its reduction crucial in the fight against climate change.

The SECCRA-Waga Energy Partnership

SECCRA, serving approximately 105,000 residents in Chester County, processes between 450 to 500 tons of waste daily. To mitigate methane emissions from its landfill, SECCRA has partnered with Waga Energy to install a WAGABOX unit—a technology designed to capture and convert landfill methane into RNG, while related efforts like electrified LNG in B.C. illustrate sector-wide decarbonization.

How the WAGABOX Technology Works

The WAGABOX system utilizes a proprietary process to extract methane from landfill gas, purify it, and inject it into the natural gas grid. This process not only reduces harmful emissions, as emerging carbon dioxide electricity generation concepts also aim to do, but also produces a renewable energy source that can be used to heat homes and power businesses.

Environmental and Community Benefits

By converting methane into RNG, the project significantly lowers greenhouse gas emissions, supported by DOE funding for carbon capture initiatives, contributing to climate change mitigation. Additionally, the RNG produced is expected to supply energy to heat over 4,000 homes, providing a sustainable energy source for the local community.

Broader Implications

This initiative aligns with international clean energy cooperation to reduce methane emissions from landfills. Similar projects have been implemented worldwide, demonstrating the effectiveness of converting landfill methane into renewable energy. For instance, Waga Energy has successfully deployed WAGABOX units at various landfills, showcasing the scalability and impact of this technology.

The collaboration between SECCRA and Waga Energy represents a proactive step toward environmental sustainability and energy innovation. By transforming landfill methane into renewable natural gas, the project not only addresses a significant source of greenhouse gas emissions as new EPA power plant rules on carbon capture advance parallel strategies, but also provides a clean energy alternative for the Chester County community.

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Goreway Power Station Overbilling exposed by Ontario Energy Board shows IESO oversight failures, GCG gaming, and $100M in inappropriate payments at the Brampton natural gas plant, penalized with fines and repayments impacting Ontario ratepayers.

Key Points

Goreway exploited IESO GCG flaws, causing about $100M in improper payouts and fines.

✅ OEB probe flagged $89M in ineligible start-up O&M charges

✅ IESO fined Goreway $10M; majority of excess costs recovered

✅ Audit found $200M in overbilling across nine generators

Hydro customers shelled out about $100 million in "inappropriate" payments to a natural gas plant that exploited flaws in how Ontario manages its private electricity generators, according to the Ontario Energy Board.

The company operating the Goreway Power Station in Brampton "gamed" the system for at least three years, according to an investigation by the provincial energy regulator. 

The investigation also delivers stinging criticism of the provincial government's Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), slamming it for a lack of oversight. The probe by the Ontario Energy Board's market surveillance panel was completed nearly a year ago, but was only made public in November because it was buried on its website without a news release. CBC News is the first media outlet to report on the investigation.  

The excess payments to Goreway Power Station included:

• $89 million in ineligible expenses billed as the costs of firing up power production. 
• $5.6 million paid in three months from a flaw in how IESO calculated top-ups for the company committing to generate power a day in advance.   
• Of $11.2 million paid to compensate the company for IESO ordering it to start or stop generating power, the investigation concluded "a substantial portion ... was the result of gaming."  

Most privately-owned natural gas-fired plants in the province do not generate electricity constantly, but start and stop production in response to fluctuating market demand, even as the energy minister has requested an halt to natural gas generation across the grid.  IESO pays them a premium for the costs of firing up production, through what it calls "generation cost guarantee" programs. 

But the investigation found IESO did little checking into the details of Goreway Power Station's billings. 

Goreway Power Station, located near Highway 407 in Brampton, Ont., is an 875 megawatt natural gas power plant. (Goreway)

"Conservatively, at least $89 million of Goreway's submissions were clearly ineligible by any reasonable measure," concludes the report.

"Goreway routinely submitted what were obviously inappropriate expenses to be reimbursed by the IESO, and ultimately borne by Ontario ratepayers,"

The investigation panel found an "extraordinary pattern" to these billings by Goreway Power Station, suggesting the IESO should have caught on sooner. The company submitted more than $100 million in start-up operating and maintenance costs during the three-year period investigated — more than all other gas-fired generators in the province combined. The company's costs per start-up were more than double the next most expensive power generator. 

"Goreway repeatedly exploited defects in the GCG (generation cost guarantee) program, and in doing so received at least $89 million in gamed GCG payments." 

Company fined $10M

The investigation covered a three-year period from when Goreway Power Station began generating power in June 2009. Investigators said that delays in releasing documents slowed down their probe, and they only obtained all the records they needed in April 2016.

The investigating panel does not have the power to impose penalties on companies it found broke the rules. 

The IESO fined Goreway Power Station $10 million. The company has also repaid IESO "a substantial portion" of the excess payments it received during its first six years of operating, but the exact figure is blacked out in the investigation report that was made public. 

The control room from which the provincial government's Independent Electricity System Operator manages Ontario's power supply. The agency is also responsible for managing contracts with private power producers.(IESO)

"Goreway does not agree with many of the draft report's findings and conclusions, including any suggestion that Goreway engaged in gaming or that it deliberately misled the IESO," writes lawyer George Vegh on behalf of the company in a response to the investigation report, dated Aug. 1.

"Goreway has implemented initiatives designed to ensure that compliance is a chief operating principle."     

The power station, located near Highway 407 in Brampton, is a joint venture between Toyota Tsusho Corp. and JERA Co. Inc. During the period under scrutiny, the project was run by Toyota Tsusho and Chubu Electric Power Inc., both headquartered in Japan. 

Investigators fear 'same situation' exists today

The report blames the provincially-controlled IESO for creating a system with defects that allowed the over-billing. 

"Goreway was able to — and repeatedly did — exploit these defects," says the investigation report. It goes on to explain the flaws "have created opportunities for exploitation, to the serious financial disadvantage of Ontario's ratepayers," even as greening Ontario's grid could entail massive costs.

The investigation suggests IESO hasn't made adequate changes to ensure it won't happen again, at a time when an analysis of a dirtier grid is raising concerns.   

"Goreway stands as a clear example of how generators are able to exploit the generation costs guarantee regime," says the report.

"The Panel is concerned that the same situation remains in place today." 

PC energy critic Todd Smith raised CBC News' report on the Goreway Power Station in Tuesday's question period. (Ontario Legislature)

After CBC News broke the story Tuesday, the provincial government was forced to respond in question period, amid a broader push for new gas plants to boost electricity production. 

"Here we have yet another gas plant scandal in Peel region that's costing electricity customers over $100 million," said PC energy critic Todd Smith. He slammed "the incompetence of a government that once again failed to look out for electricity customers." 

Economic Development Minister Brad Duguid said: "There is no excuse for any company in this province to ever game the system."

Nine companies overbilled $200M: audit 

The IESO found out about the overbilling "some time ago," said Duguid.

"They fully investigated, they've recovered most of the cost, they delivered a $10 million fine — the biggest fine on record."

The program that Goreway exploited became the subject of an audit that the IESO launched in 2011. The agency uncovered $200 million in ineligible billings by nine power producers, wrote the IESO vice president for policy Terry Young in an email to CBC News.

The IESO has recovered up to 85 per cent of those ineligible costs, Young noted.

Reforms to the design of the the program have removed the potential for overpayments and made it more efficient, he said, even as Ontario weighs embracing clean power more broadly. Last year, its total annual costs dropped to $23 million, down from $61 million in 2014.

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Ukraine Winter Energy Strategy strengthens the power grid through infrastructure repairs, electricity imports, renewable integration, nuclear output, and conservation to ensure reliable heating, blackout mitigation, and grid resilience with international aid, generators, and transmission lines.

Key Points

A wartime plan to stabilize Ukraine's grid via repairs, imports, renewables, and nuclear to deliver reliable electricity.

✅ Repairs, imports, and demand management stabilize the grid.

✅ Renewables and nuclear reduce outage risks in winter.

✅ International aid supplies transformers, generators, expertise.

As Ukraine braces for the winter months, the question of how the country will keep the lights on has become a pressing concern, as the country fights to keep the lights on amid ongoing strikes. The ongoing war with Russia has severely disrupted Ukraine's energy infrastructure, leading to widespread damage to power plants, transmission lines, and other critical energy facilities. Despite these challenges, Ukraine has been working tirelessly to maintain its energy supply during the cold winter months, which are essential not only for heating but also for the functioning of homes, businesses, hospitals, and schools. Here's a closer look at the steps Ukraine is taking to keep the lights on this winter and ensure that its people have access to reliable electricity.

1. Repairing Damaged Infrastructure

One of the most immediate concerns for Ukraine's energy sector is the extensive damage inflicted on its power infrastructure by Russian missile and drone attacks. Since the war began in 2022, Ukraine has faced repeated attacks targeting power plants, substations, and power lines, including strikes on western regions that caused widespread outages across communities. These attacks have left parts of the country with intermittent or no electricity, and repairing the damage has been a monumental task.

However, Ukraine has made significant progress in restoring its energy infrastructure. Government agencies and energy companies have been working around the clock to repair power plants and transmission networks. Teams of technicians and engineers have been deployed to restore power to areas that have been hardest hit by Russian attacks, often under difficult and dangerous conditions. While some areas may continue to face outages, efforts to rebuild the energy grid are ongoing, with the government prioritizing critical infrastructure to ensure that hospitals, military facilities, and essential services have access to power.

2. Energy Efficiency and Conservation Measures

To cope with reduced energy availability and avoid overloading the grid, Ukrainian authorities have been encouraging energy efficiency and conservation measures. These efforts are particularly important during the winter when demand for electricity and heating is at its peak.

The government has implemented energy-saving programs, urging citizens and businesses to reduce their consumption and adopt new energy solutions that can be deployed quickly. Measures include limiting electricity use during peak hours, setting thermostats lower in homes and businesses, and encouraging the use of energy-efficient appliances. Ukrainian officials have also been promoting public awareness campaigns to educate people about the importance of energy conservation, which is crucial to avoid grid overload and ensure the distribution of power across the country.

3. Importing Energy from Abroad

To supplement domestic energy production, Ukraine has been working to secure electricity imports from neighboring countries. Ukraine has long been interconnected with energy grids in countries such as Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary, which allows it to import electricity during times of shortage. In recent months, Ukraine has ramped up efforts to strengthen these connections, ensuring that it can import electricity when domestic production is insufficient to meet demand, and in a notable instance, helped Spain during blackouts through coordinated cross-border support.

While electricity imports from neighboring countries provide a temporary solution, this is not without its challenges. The cost of importing electricity can be high, and the country’s ability to import large amounts of power depends on the availability of energy in neighboring nations; officials say there are electricity reserves and no scheduled outages if strikes do not resume. Ukraine has been actively seeking new energy partnerships and working with international organizations to secure access to electricity, including exploring the potential for importing energy from the European Union.

4. Harnessing Renewable Energy Sources

Another key part of Ukraine's strategy to keep the lights on this winter is tapping into renewable energy sources, particularly wind and solar power. While Ukraine’s energy sector has historically been dependent on fossil fuels, the country has been making strides in integrating renewable energy into its grid. Solar and wind energy are particularly useful in supplementing the national grid, especially during the winter months when demand is high.

Renewable energy sources are less vulnerable to missile strikes compared to traditional power plants, making them an attractive option for Ukraine's energy strategy. Although renewable energy currently represents a smaller portion of Ukraine’s overall energy mix, its contribution is expected to increase as the country invests more in clean energy infrastructure. In addition to reducing dependence on fossil fuels, this shift is aligned with Ukraine’s broader environmental goals and will be important for the long-term sustainability of its energy sector.

5. International Aid and Support

International support has been crucial in helping Ukraine keep the lights on during the war. Western allies, including the European Union and the United States, have provided financial assistance, technical expertise, and equipment to help restore the energy infrastructure, though Washington recently ended some grid restoration support as priorities shifted. In addition to rebuilding power plants and transmission lines, Ukraine has received advanced energy technologies and materials to strengthen its energy security.

The U.S. has sent electrical transformers, backup generators, and other essential equipment to help Ukraine restore its energy grid. The European Union has also provided both financial and technical assistance, supporting Ukraine’s efforts to integrate more renewable energy into its grid and enhancing the country’s ability to import electricity from neighboring states.

6. The Role of Nuclear Energy

Ukraine’s nuclear energy plants play a critical role in the country’s electricity supply. Before the war, nuclear power accounted for around 50% of Ukraine’s total electricity generation, and for communities near the front line, electricity is civilization that depends on reliable baseload. Despite the ongoing conflict, Ukrainian nuclear plants have remained operational, though they face heightened security risks due to the proximity of active combat zones.

In the winter months, nuclear plants are expected to continue providing a significant portion of Ukraine's electricity, which is essential for meeting the country's heating and power needs. The government has made efforts to ensure the safety and security of these plants, which remain a vital part of the country's energy strategy.

Keeping the lights on in Ukraine during the winter of 2024 is no small feat, given the war-related damage to energy infrastructure, rising energy demands, and ongoing security risks. However, the Ukrainian government has taken proactive steps to address these challenges, including repairing critical infrastructure, importing energy from neighboring countries, promoting energy efficiency, and expanding renewable energy sources. International aid and the continued operation of nuclear plants also play a vital role in ensuring a reliable energy supply. While challenges remain, Ukraine’s resilience and determination to overcome its energy crisis are clear, and the country is doing everything it can to keep the lights on through this difficult winter.

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Sudbury Electrification and Grid Expansion is driving record power demand, EV charging, renewable energy planning, IESO forecasts, smart grid upgrades, battery storage, and industrial electrification, requiring cleaner power plants and transmission capacity in northern Ontario.

Key Points

Rising electricity demand and clean energy upgrades in Sudbury to power EVs, industry, and a smarter, expanded grid.

✅ IESO projects system size may need to more than double

✅ EVs and smart devices increase peak and off-peak load

✅ Battery storage and V2G can support reliability and resiliency

Sudbury, Ont., is consuming more power than ever, amid an electricity supply crunch in Ontario, according to green energy organizations that say meeting the demand will require cleaner energy sources.

"This is the welfare of the entire city on the line and they are putting their trust in electrification," said David St. Georges, manager of communications at reThink Green, a non-profit organization focused on sustainability in Sudbury.

According to St. Georges, Sudbury and northern Ontario can meet the growing demand for electricity to charge clean power for EVs and smart devices. 

According to the Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), making a full switch from fossil fuels to other renewable energy sources could require more power plants, while other provinces face electricity shortages of their own.

"We have forecasted that Ontario's electricity system will need significant expansion to meet this, potentially more than doubling in size," the IESO told CBC News in an emailed statement.

Electrification in the industrial sector is adding greater demand to the electrical grid as electric cars challenge power grids in many regions. Algoma Steel in Sault Ste. Marie and ArcelorMittal Dofasco in Hamilton both aim to get electric arc furnaces in operation. Together, those projects will require 630 megawatts.

"That's like adding four cities the size of Sudbury to the grid," IESO said.

Devin Arthur, chapter president of the Electric Vehicle society in Greater Sudbury, said the city is coming full circle with fully electrifying its power grid, reflecting how EVs are a hot topic in Alberta and beyond.

"We're going to need more power," he said.

"Once natural gas was introduced, that kind of switched back, and everyone was getting out of electrification and going into natural gas and other sources of power."

Despite Sudbury's increased appetite for electricity, Arthur added it's also easier to store now as Ontario moves to rely on battery storage solutions.

"What that means is you can actually use your electric vehicle as a battery storage device for the grid, so you can actually sell power from your vehicle that you've stored back to the grid, if they need that power," he said.

Harneet Panesar, chief operating officer for the Ontario Energy Board, told CBC the biggest challenge to going green is seeing if it can work around older infrastructure, while policy debates such as Canada's 2035 EV sales mandate shape the pace of change.

"You want to make sure that you're building in the right spot," he said.

"Consumers are shifting from combustion engines to EV drivetrains. You're also creating more dependency. At a very high level, I'm going to say it's probably going to go up in terms of the demand for electricity."

Fossil fuels are the first to go for generating electricity, said St. Georges.

"But we're not there yet, because it's not a light switch solution. It takes time to get to that, which is another issue of electrification," he said.

"It's almost impossible for us not to go that direction."

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