Pickens: Renewable energy sources a must for U.S.

By Associated Press


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As he prepares to address a wind-power conference in Oklahoma, billionaire energy magnate T. Boone Pickens said it shouldn't seem strange that a longtime oilman is interested in wind and other alternative energy sources.

"It's not totally unrelated to the oil business," Pickens told The Associated Press. "It's an energy business. It's easy for me to make the transition to wind. If we hadn't had such a tough year in the market, we were looking seriously at a couple of solar ideas."

The 80-year-old Pickens, who heads the Dallas-based hedge fund BP Capital Management LP, in July launched his so-called "Pickens Plan" for energy independence. The multimedia campaign is designed to bring more focus to solving the nation's energy crisis.

The plan calls for developing renewable energy sources and using natural gas as a transportation fuel to help wean the U.S. from its dependency on foreign oil.

"I like renewables because they're in America," Pickens said. "We have to get off of foreign oil. It's easy. The only resource we have in America that can go head-to-head to compete with diesel or gas... is natural gas."

Pickens is proposing using natural gas as a transportation fuel — particularly for heavy-duty vehicles such as tractor-trailers — and developing wind and solar energy technology to replace natural gas now used to generate electricity.

He has traveled across the U.S. speaking about the plan. Pickens will be a keynote speaker at "Revolution — The Oklahoma Wind Energy Conference," which will be held Tuesday and Wednesday in Oklahoma City.

Pickens has leased hundreds of thousands of acres for a giant wind farm in the Texas Panhandle, where he plans to erect 2,700 turbines. He has said that plans for the wind farm will be delayed by about a year, until 2011, because of the economic downturn.

He's also spoken with key policy makers in Washington, including U.S. Rep. Rahm Emanuel, D-Ill. — who will be the chief of staff for President-elect Barack Obama — and Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., the new chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

"They like renewables, no question," Pickens said. "They like the natural gas for the heavy duty (vehicles). That's been the conversation. I talked to Waxman.... What he said is the same thing I say."

Wind energy is becoming increasingly popular in Oklahoma. In September, University of Oklahoma President David Boren announced that OU's Norman campus will be completely powered by wind by 2013. Boren said then it was one of the largest renewable energy commitments ever made by a public university in the United States.

OU was the second Oklahoma university to make the switch to 100 percent wind power, following the University of Central Oklahoma in Edmond, which did so in April 2006.

Now a school in the often-windy Oklahoma Panhandle also is converting. Yarbrough Public School, about 35 west of Goodwell, recently installed a 50-kilowatt wind turbine, which is mounted on a 100-foot tower about 100 yards south of the school.

The tower began producing power for the school in October. School Superintendent Jim Wiggin said it's expected that half of the school's electricity will be generated by the tower, enough to pay off the cost of turbine within nine years.

"Now we are just hoping it works like we expect it to," Wiggin said.

Pickens praised such efforts.

"That's leadership, and leadership, people follow," Pickens said. "I see that.... Everybody is going to move in that direction because it's the right thing to do."

Pickens said as oil and natural gas prices rose to record levels earlier this year, interest increased in wind energy, but the current lower prices for fossil fuels has — in some quarters — reduced the eagerness to pursue alternative energy sources.

That's a mistake, he said.

"We just need to get a plan and stick with it and not be so quick to change when the (gas) price goes down," Pickens said. "That's been the yo-yo we've had since the '70s... in the '70s, '80s, '90s and now you're in 2008 and you're hearing it again."

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France's nuclear power stations to limit energy output due to high river temperatures

France Nuclear Heatwave Output Restrictions signal reduced reactor capacity along the Rhone River, as EDF curbs output to meet cooling-water rules, balance the grid, integrate solar peaks, and limit impacts on power prices.

 

Key Points

EDF limits reactor output during heat to protect rivers and keep the grid stable under cooling-water rules.

✅ Cuts likely at midday/weekends when solar peaks

✅ Bugey, Saint Alban maintain minimum grid output

✅ France net exporter; price impact expected small

 

The high temperature warning has come early this year but will affect fewer nuclear power plants, amid a broader France-Germany nuclear dispute over atomic power policy that shapes regional energy flows.

High temperatures could halve nuclear power production at plants along France's Rhone River this week, as European power hits records during extreme heat. 

Output restrictions are expected at two nuclear plants in eastern France due to high temperature forecasts, nuclear operator EDF said, which may limit energy output during heatwaves. It comes several days ahead of a similar warning that was made last year but will affect fewer plants.

The hot weather is likely to halve the available power supply from the 3.6 GW Bugey plant from 13 July and the 2.6 GW Saint Alban plant from 16 July, the operator said.

However, production will be at least 1.8 GW at Bugey and 1.3 GW at Saint Alban to meet grid requirements, and may change according to grid needs, the operator said.

Kpler analyst Emeric de Vigan said the restrictions were likely to have little effect on output in practice. Cuts are likely only at the weekend or midday when solar output was at its peak so the impact on power prices would be slim.

During recent lockdowns, power demand held firm in Europe, offering context for current price dynamics.

He said the situation would need monitoring in the coming weeks, however, noting it was unusually early in the summer for such restrictions to be imposed.

Water temperatures at the Bugey plant already eclipsed the initial threshold for restrictions on 9 July, underscoring France's outage risks under heat-driven constraints. They are currently forecast to peak next week and then drop again, Refinitiv data showed.

"France is currently net exporting large amounts of power – single nuclear units' supply restrictions will not have the same effect as last year," Refinitiv analyst Nathalie Gerl said.

The Garonne River in southern France has the highest potential for critical levels of warming, but its Golfech plant is currently offline for maintenance until mid-August, the data showed, highlighting how Europe is losing nuclear power during critical periods.

"(The restrictions were) to be expected and it will probably occur more often," Greenpeace campaigner Roger Spautz said.

"The authorities must stick to existing regulations for water discharges. Otherwise, the ecosystems will be even more affected," he added.

 

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IAEA - COVID-19 and Low Carbon Electricity Lessons for the Future

Nuclear Power Resilience During COVID-19 shows low-carbon electricity supporting renewables integration with grid flexibility, reliability, and inertia, sustaining decarbonization, stable baseload, and system security while prices fell and demand dropped across markets.

 

Key Points

It shows nuclear plants providing reliable, low-carbon power and supporting grid stability despite demand declines.

✅ Low prices challenge investment; lifetime extensions are cost-effective.

✅ Nuclear provides inertia, reliability, and dispatchable capacity.

✅ Market reforms should reward flexibility and grid services.

 

The COVID-19 pandemic has transformed the operation of power systems across the globe, including European responses that many argue accelerated the transition, and offered a glimpse of a future electricity mix dominated by low carbon sources.

The performance of nuclear power, in particular, demonstrates how it can support the transition to a resilient, clean energy system well beyond the COVID-19 recovery phase, and its role in net-zero pathways is increasingly highlighted by analysts today.

Restrictions on economic and social activity during the COVID-19 outbreak have led to an unprecedented and sustained decline in demand for electricity in many countries, in the order of 10% or more relative to 2019 levels over a period of a few months, thereby creating challenging conditions for both electricity generators and system operators (Fig. 1). The recent Sustainable Recovery Report by the International Energy Agency (IEA) projects a 5% reduction in global electricity usage for the entire year 2020, with a record 5.7% decline foreseen in the United States alone. The sustainable economic recovery will be discussed at today's IEA Clean Energy Transitions Summit, where Fatih Birol's call to keep options open will be prominent as IAEA Director General Rafael Mariano Grossi participates.

Electricity generation from fossil fuels has been hard hit, due to relatively high operating costs compared to nuclear power and renewables, as well as simple price-setting mechanisms on electricity markets. By contrast, low-carbon electricity prevailed during these extraordinary circumstances, with the contribution of renewable electricity rising in a number of countries as analyses see renewables eclipsing coal by 2025, due to an obligation on transmission system operators to schedule and dispatch renewable electricity ahead of other generators, as well as due to favourable weather conditions.

Nuclear power generation also proved to be resilient, reliable and adaptable. The nuclear industry rapidly implemented special measures to cope with the pandemic, avoiding the need to shut down plants due to the effects of COVID-19 on the workforce or supply chains. Nuclear generators also swiftly adapted to the changed market conditions. For example, EDF Energy was able to respond to the need of the UK grid operator by curtailing sporadically the generation of its Sizewell B reactor and maintain a cost-efficient and secure electricity service for consumers.

Despite the nuclear industry's performance during the pandemic, faced with significant decreases in demand, many generators have still needed to reduce their overall output appreciably, for example in France, Sweden, Ukraine, the UK and to a lesser extent Germany (Fig. 2), even as the nuclear decline debate continues in Europe. Declining demand in France up to the end of March already contributed to a 1% drop in first quarter revenues at EDF, with nuclear output more than 9% lower than in the year before. Similarly, Russia's Rosatom experienced a significant demand contraction in April and May, contributing to an 11% decline in revenues for the first five months of the year.

Overall, the competitiveness and resilience of low carbon technologies have resulted in higher market shares for nuclear, solar and wind power in many countries since the start of lockdowns (Fig. 3), and low-emissions sources to meet demand growth over the next three years. The share of nuclear generation in South Korea rose by almost 9 percentage points during the pandemic, while in the UK, nuclear played a big part in almost eliminating coal generation for a period of two months. For the whole of 2020, the US Energy Information Administration's Short-Term Energy Outlook sees the share of nuclear generation increasing by more than one percentage point compared to 2019. In China, power production decreased during January-February 2020 by more than 8% year on year: coal power decreased by nearly 9%, hydropower by nearly 12%. Nuclear has proved more resilient with a 2% reduction only. The benefits of these higher shares of clean energy in terms of reduced emissions of greenhouse gases and other air pollutants have been on full display worldwide over the past months.

Challenges for the future

Despite the demonstrated performance of a cleaner energy system through the crisis - including the capacity of existing nuclear power plants to deliver a competitive, reliable, and low carbon electricity service when needed - both short- and long-term challenges remain.

In the shorter term, the collapse in electricity demand has accelerated recent falls in electricity prices, particularly in Europe (Fig. 4), from already economically unsustainable levels. According to Standard and Poor's Midyear Update, the large price drops in Europe result from not only COVID-19 lockdown measures but also collapsing demand due to an unusually warm winter, increased supply from renewables in a context of lower gas prices and CO2 allowances . Such low prices further exacerbate the challenging environment faced by many electricity generators, including nuclear plants. These may impede the required investments in the clean energy transition, with longer term consequences on the achievement of climate goals.

For nuclear power, maintaining and extending the operation of existing plants is essential to support and accelerate the transition to low carbon energy systems. With a supportive investment environment, a 10-20 year lifetime extension can be realized at an average cost of US $30-40/MW*h, making it among the most cost-effective low-carbon options, while also maintaining dispatchable capacity and lowering the overall cost of the clean energy transition. The IEA Sustainable Recovery report indicates that without such extensions 40% of the nuclear fleet in developed economies may be retired within a decade, adding around US$ 80 billion per year to electricity bills. The IEA note the potential for nuclear plant maintenance and extension programmes to support recovery measures by generating significant economic activity and employment.

The need for flexibility

New nuclear power projects can provide similar economic and environmental benefits and applications beyond electricity, but will be all the more challenging to finance without strong policy support and more substantive power market reforms, including improved frameworks for remunerating reliability, flexibility and other services. The need for flexibility in electricity generation and system operation - a trend accelerated by the crisis - will increasingly characterize future energy systems over the medium to longer term.

Looking further ahead, while generators and system operators successfully responded to the crisis, the observed decline in fossil fuel generation draws attention to additional grid stability challenges likely to emerge further into the energy transition. Heavy rotating steam and gas turbines provide mechanical inertia to an electricity system, thereby maintaining its balance. Replacing these capacities with variable renewables may result in greater instability, poorer power quality and increased incidence of blackouts. Large nuclear power plants along with other technologies can fill this role, alleviating the risk of supply disruptions in fully decarbonized electricity systems.

The challenges created by COVID-19 have also brought into focus the need to ensure resilience is built-in to future energy systems to cope with a broader range of external shocks, including more variable and extreme weather patterns expected from climate change.

The performance of nuclear power during the crisis provides a timely reminder of its ongoing contribution and future potential in creating a more sustainable, reliable, low carbon energy system.

Data sources for electricity demand, generation and prices: European Network of Transmission System Operators for Electricity (Europe), Ukrenergo National Power Company (Ukraine), Power System Operation Corporation (India), Korea Power Exchange (South Korea), Operador Nacional do Sistema Eletrico (Brazil), Independent Electricity System Operator (Ontario, Canada), EIA (USA). Data cover 1 January to May/June.

 

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Electric Ferries Power Up B.C. with CIB Help

BC Ferries Electrification accelerates zero-emission vessels, Canada Infrastructure Bank financing, and fast charging infrastructure to cut greenhouse gas emissions, lower operating costs, and reduce noise across British Columbia's Island-class routes.

 

Key Points

BC Ferries Electrification is the plan to deploy zero-emission ferries and charging, funded by CIB, to reduce emissions.

✅ $75M CIB loan funds four electric ferries and chargers

✅ Cuts 9,000 tonnes CO2e annually on short Island-class routes

✅ Quieter service, lower operating costs, and redeployed hybrids

 

British Columbia is taking a significant step towards a cleaner transportation future with the electrification of its ferry fleet. BC Ferries, the province's ferry operator, has secured a $75 million loan from the Canada Infrastructure Bank (CIB) to fund the purchase of four zero-emission ferries and the necessary charging infrastructure to support them.

This marks a turning point for BC Ferries, which currently operates a fleet reliant on diesel fuel. The new Island-class electric ferries will be deployed on shorter routes, replacing existing hybrid ships on those routes. These hybrid ferries will then be redeployed on routes that haven't yet been converted to electric, maximizing their lifespan and efficiency.

Environmental Benefits

The transition to electric ferries is expected to deliver significant environmental benefits. The new vessels are projected to eliminate an estimated 9,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions annually, and electric ships on the B.C. coast already demonstrate similar gains, contributing to British Columbia's ambitious climate goals. Additionally, the quieter operation of electric ferries will create a more pleasant experience for passengers and reduce noise pollution for nearby communities.

Economic Considerations

The CIB loan plays a crucial role in making this project financially viable. The low-interest rate offered by the CIB will help to keep ferry fares more affordable for passengers. Additionally, the long-term operational costs of electric ferries are expected to be lower than those of diesel-powered vessels, providing economic benefits in the long run.

Challenges and Opportunities

While the electrification of BC Ferries is a positive development, there are some challenges to consider. The upfront costs of electric ferries and charging infrastructure are typically higher than those of traditional options, though projects such as the Kootenay Lake ferry show growing readiness. However, advancements in battery technology are constantly lowering costs, making electric ferries a more cost-effective choice over time.

Moreover, the transition presents opportunities for job creation in the clean energy sector, with complementary initiatives like the hydrogen project broadening demand. The development, construction, and maintenance of electric ferries and charging infrastructure will require skilled workers, potentially creating a new avenue for economic growth in British Columbia.

A Pioneering Example

BC Ferries' electrification initiative sets a strong precedent for other ferry operators worldwide, including Washington State Ferries pursuing hybrid-electric upgrades. This project demonstrates the feasibility and economic viability of transitioning to cleaner marine transportation solutions. As battery technology and charging infrastructure continue to develop, we can expect to see more widespread adoption of electric ferries across the globe.

The collaboration between BC Ferries and the CIB paves the way for a greener future for BC's transportation sector, where efforts like Harbour Air's electric aircraft complement marine electrification. With cleaner air, quieter operation, and a positive impact on climate change, this project is a win for the environment, the economy, and British Columbia as a whole.

 

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Ontario utilities team up to warn customers about ongoing scams

Ontario Utility Scam Alert: protect against phishing, spoofed calls, texts, and emails, disconnection threats, and demands for prepaid cards or bitcoin. Tips from Alectra, Elexicon, Hydro One, Hydro Ottawa, and Toronto Hydro.

 

Key Points

A joint warning by Ontario utilities on tactics and steps to prevent customer fraud, phishing, and spoofed contacts.

✅ Verify bills; call your utility using the official number.

✅ Ignore links; do not accept unexpected e-transfers.

✅ Never pay with gift cards, prepaid cards, or bitcoin.

 

Five of Ontario's largest utilities have joined forces to raise awareness about ongoing sophisticated utility scams targeting utility customers.

Some common tactics fraudsters use to target Ontarians include impersonation of the local utility or its employees; sending threatening phone calls, texts and emails; or showing up in-person at a customer's home or business and requesting personal information or payment. The requests can include pressure for immediate payment, threats to disconnect service the same day, and demands to purchase prepaid debit cards, gift cards or bitcoin.

The utilities are encouraging all customers to protect themselves and are providing them with the following tips to stay safe, noting that customers want more choice and flexibility in how they manage accounts:

  • Never make a payment for a charge that isn't listed on your most recent bill
  • Ignore text messages or emails with suspicious links promising refunds
  • Don't call the number provided to you — instead, call your utility directly to check the status of your account
  • Only provide personal information or details about your account when you have initiated the contact with the utility representative  
  • Utility companies will never threaten immediate disconnection for non-payment, and many offer relief programs during hardship
  • If you feel threatened in any way, contact your local police
  • Steps you can take to protect yourself against fraud:

Take five minutes to ask additional questions and listen to your instincts — if something doesn't seem right, ask someone about it, and look for news of official utility support efforts that confirm legitimate outreach

  • Immediately hang up on suspicious phone calls
  • Don't click any links in emails/text messages asking you to accept electronic transfers
  • Avoid sharing personal information
  • Always compare bills to previous ones, including the dollar amount and account number, and stay informed about any official rate changes from your utility
  • Reporting suspicious behaviour, including suspected electricity theft, helps authorities

If you believe you may be a victim of fraud, please contact the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre at 1-888-495-8501 and your local utility.

Customers can find more information at:

  • Alectra Utilities
  • Elexicon Energy
  • Hydro One
  • Hydro Ottawa 
  • Toronto Hydro

 

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Quebec premier inaugurates La Romaine hydroelectric complex

La Romaine Hydroelectric Complex anchors Quebec's hydropower expansion, showcasing Hydro-Québec ingenuity, clean energy, electrification, and grid capacity gains along the North Shore's Romaine River to power industry and nearly 470,000 homes.

 

Key Points

A four-station, $7.4B hydro project on Quebec's Romaine River producing 8 TWh a year for electrification and industry.

✅ Generates 8 TWh yearly, powering about 470,000 homes

✅ Largest Quebec hydro build since James Bay project

✅ Key to clean energy, grid capacity, and electrification

 

Quebec Premier François Legault has inaugurated the la Romaine hydroelectric complex on the province's North Shore.

The newly inaugurated Romaine hydroelectric complex could serve as a model for future projects, such as the Carillon Generating Station investment now planned in the province, Legault said.

"It brings me a lot of pride. It is truly the symbol of Quebec ingenuity," he said as he opened the vast power plant.

Legault was accompanied at today's event by Jean Charest, who was Quebec premier when construction began in 2009, as well as Hydro-Québec president and CEO Michael Sabia. 

La Romaine is comprised of four power stations and is the largest hydro project constructed in the province since the Robert Bourassa generation facility, which was commissioned in 1979. It is the biggest hydro installation since the James Bay project, bolstering Hydro-Québec's hydropower capacity across the grid today.

The construction work for Romaine-4 was supposed to finish in 2020, but it was delayed the COVID-19 pandemic, the death of four workers due to security flaws and soil decomposition problems. 

The $7.4-billion la Romaine complex can produce eight terawatt hours of electricity per year, enough to power nearly 470,000 homes.

It generates its power from the Romaine River, located north of Havre-St-Pierre, Que., near the Labrador border, where long-standing Newfoundland and Labrador tensions over Quebec's projects sometimes resurface today.

Legault said that Quebec still doesn't have enough electricity to meet demand from industry, including recent allocations of electricity for industrial projects across the province, and Quebecers need to consider more ways to boost the province's ability to power future projects. The premier has said previously that demand is expected to surge by an additional 100 terawatt-hours by 2050 — half the current annual output of the provincially owned utility.

Legault's environmental plan of reducing greenhouse gases and achieving carbon neutrality by 2050 hinges on increased electrification and a strategy to wean off fossil fuels provincewide, so the electricity needs for transport and industry will be massive.

An updated strategic plan from Hydro-Quebec will be presented in November outlining those needs, president and CEO Michael Sabia told reporters on Thursday, after recent deals with NB Power underscored interprovincial demand.

Legault said the report will trigger a broader debate on energy transition and how the province can be a leader in the green economy. He said he wasn't ruling out any potential power sources — except for a return to nuclear power at this stage.

 

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Some old dams are being given a new power: generating clean electricity

Hydroelectric retrofits for unpowered dams leverage turbines to add renewable capacity, bolster grid reliability, and enable low-impact energy storage, supporting U.S. and Canada decarbonization goals with lower costs, minimal habitat disruption, and climate resilience.

 

Key Points

They add turbines to existing dams to make clean power, stabilize the grid, and offer low-impact storage at lower cost.

✅ Lower capex than new dams; minimal habitat disruption

✅ Adds firming and storage to support wind and solar

✅ New low-head turbines unlock more retrofit sites

 

As countries race to get their power grids off fossil fuels to fight climate change, there's a big push in the U.S. to upgrade dams built for purposes such as water management or navigation with a feature they never had before — hydroelectric turbines. 

And the strategy is being used in parts of Canada, too, with growing interest in hydropower from Canada supplying New York and New England.

The U.S. Energy Information Administration says only three per cent of 90,000 U.S. dams currently generate electricity. A 2012 report from the U.S. Department of Energy found that those dams have 12,000 megawatts (MW) of potential hydroelectric generation capacity. (According to the National Hydropower Association, 1 MW can power 750 to 1,000 homes. That means 12,000 MW should be able to power more than nine million homes.)

As of May 2019, there were projects planned to convert 32 unpowered dams to add 330 MW to the grid over the next several years.

One that was recently completed was the Red Rock Hydroelectric Project, a 60-year-old flood control dam on the Des Moines River in Iowa that was retrofitted in 2014 to generate 36.4 MW at normal reservoir levels, and up to 55 MW at high reservoir levels and flows. It started feeding power to the grid this spring, and is expected to generate enough annually to supply power to 18,000 homes.

It's an approach that advocates say can convert more of the grid from fossil fuels to clean energy, often with a lower cost and environmental impact than building new dams.

Hydroelectric facilities can also be used for energy storage, complementing intermittent clean energy sources such as wind and solar with pumped storage to help maintain a more reliable, resilient grid.

The Nature Conservancy and the World Wildlife Fund are two environmental groups that oppose new hydro dams because they can block fish migration, harm water quality, damage surrounding ecosystems and release methane and CO2, and in some regions, Western Canada drought has reduced hydropower output as reservoirs run low. But they say adding turbines to non-powered dams can be part of a shift toward low-impact hydro projects that can support expansion of solar and wind power.

Paul Norris, president of the Ontario Waterpower Association, said there's typically widespread community support for such projects in his province amid ongoing debate over whether Ontario is embracing clean power in its future plans. "Any time that you can better use existing assets, I think that's a good thing."

New turbine technology means water doesn't need to fall from as great a height to generate power, providing opportunities at sites that weren't commercially viable in the past, Norris said, with recent investments such as new turbines in Manitoba showing what is possible.

In Ontario, about 1,000 unpowered dams are owned by various levels of government. "With the appropriate policy framework, many of these assets have the potential to be retrofitted for small hydro," Norris wrote in a letter to Ontario's Independent Electricity System Operator this year as part of a discussion on small-scale local energy generation resources.

He told CBC that several such projects are already in operation, such as a 950 kW retrofit of the McLeod Dam at the Moira River in Belleville, Ont., in 2008. 

Four hydro stations were going to be added during dam refurbishment on the Trent-Severn Waterway, but they were among 758 renewable energy projects cancelled by Premier Doug Ford's government after his election in 2018, a move examined in an analysis of Ontario's dirtier electricity outlook and its implications.

Patrick Bateman, senior vice-president of Waterpower Canada, said such dam retrofit projects are uncommon in most provinces. "I don't see it being a large part of the future electricity generation capacity."

He said there has been less movement on retrofitting unpowered dams in Canada compared to the U.S., because:

There are a lot more opportunities in Canada to refurbish large, existing hydro-generating stations to boost capacity on a bigger scale.

There's less growth in demand for clean energy, because more of Canada's grid is already non-carbon-emitting (80 per cent) compared to the U.S. (40 per cent).

Even so, Norris thinks Canadians should be looking at all opportunities and options when it comes to transitioning the grid away from fossil fuels, including retrofitting non-powered dams, especially as a recent report highlights Canada's looming power problem over the coming decades.

"If we're going to be serious about addressing the inevitable challenges associated with climate change targets and net zero, it really is an all-of-the-above approach."

 

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